[I]f Nickelodeon keeps Spears on its airwaves, the network will seem to be saying that unmarried teen pregnancy, a major American problem, is negotiable if the unmarried teen is a good earner....Wait. What's "unbelievably stupid" here? Having sex when only 16, not acing birth control, or failing to have an abortion?
It's not that Nickelodeon has ever lived in some '50s sitcom world where kids never face tough issues like sex. Spears' character in "Zoey" has faced them herself.
But Nick, unlike many other media, doesn't wink at ill-advised behavior or ignore its potential consequences, and that's what the current Spears flurry is really about: consequences.
All 16-year-olds make mistakes. They all need forgiveness, from others and themselves. But forgiveness does not erase consequences, and Jamie Lynn doesn't get a pass because she was unbelievably stupid, even allowing for the fact brains don't run in her family.
It also doesn't excuse her that she has little experience with consequences, though it's true. First, there's her sister. Second, there's her mother, who got a contract from a Christian publishing house for a book on parenting while her older daughter was turning into an international poster girl for lunatic hedonism.Is this a moral principle you want to apply across the board? Extra punishment for offenses committed by individuals whose family members have committed similar offenses? Why not extra forgiveness?
Speaking of forgiveness, a Christian virtue, it is the Christmas season, when we celebrate the birth of a child to a 14-year-old girl.
ADDED: Lots of comments inside. Let me add a few things. First, you don't know how careless she was about birth control (or whether she chose to get pregnant). Pregnancy can happen to any fertile woman who does not practice abstinence. If you insist on harsh consequences, what are you doing? You may push some young women into abstinence, but you will push others toward abortion. I'm all for teen abstinence, but I also believe in looking at the world that is and being practical and compassionate. They made some mistakes. So did you. So did your kids.
Posts
266 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 266 of 266I agree. I'll be watching mine Dec. 26th.
Funny as hell, and quite accurate in its picture of boys that age, no?
"jeff, money is a great thing, but these two girls are missing a childhood, and parents that care about their development rather than how they can be used as a meal ticket."
Oh I don't disagree with you on that at all, but there are a few billion people willing to trade with them. Even without the money. There is some personal responsibility that goes along with this. Neither has been denied a roof over their heads or food to eat which puts them way ahead of a awful lot of people. Their destiny isn't necessarily becoming famous white trash.
I don't consider genocide and extreme racial supremacist doctrine to be part of populism (not to mention starting wars that kill well in excess of 50 million people).
"Racial supremacist doctrine" and populism have a long history together. The American South offers plenty of examples of this; William Jennings Bryan, for example, was enthusiastically backed by the Klan.
Populism is based on the idea that the vast majority of people ("us") are being oppressed by an elite minority ("them"). Actually slaughtering the minority in question (e.g., the Jews) is somewhat rare, but not unheard-of. The main reason it doesn't usually happen is that populist leaders seldom actually believe their own bull; they just use it to sucker the voters. Actually getting rid of the "elite" would prevent them from using that tactic in the future.
That kind of sets the Nazis apart from Will Rogers or Alf Landon.
Will Rogers and Alf Landon weren't populists.
LOL Pogo. Maybe I held bad company, but 15 and 16 year old boys didn't seem a whole lot less canine.
Pogo,
It was long ago, but I remember what boys that age were like. I now have a 13-year-old boy and a 7-year-old boy who will follow in his older brother's footsteps. The big guy is getting embarrassed when I give him kisses... :(
What was there about Alf Landon to make someone think he was a populist?
I marched with Jamie Lynn Spears.
Aw c'mon honey it will only take a minute
Remember when the One Minute Manager came out? A spate of similar books followed: the One Minute Parent, etc, capped finally by the One Minute Lover.
But the real time crunch for professionals is finding a mate; as you point out, once you have one on the premises, the rest just takes a snap of the fingers.
reader_iam confuses me. Does the age of the audience on Nickelodeon correspond exactly to the age of the characters? Because I watched Saved by the Bell (I was cable-deprived) even though I was not their age at all. I would expect Nick to be childsafe all day. Even "Nick at Night" consisted of old network shows suitable for family consumption.
And, hey, you guys: remember the Christmas story? Mary was betrothed to the much older Joseph (more than being engaged, less than being married). He knew he hadn't been porking her, so suspected she had been cheating and thought about divorcing her discreetly ("he was minded, to put her away privately") So pedophilia did not apply to the bonds of Holy Matrimony.
Pogo: I don't know what anecdote you're talking about. Your source pointed out all the flaws in the data, but never explained why we should ignore the flaws.
If by anecdote you're talking about Loretta Lynn, I'm prepared to believe she was a virgin before she married at age 13. I cited her to show that Southern musical performers have been grandmothers before age 30.
15 and 16 year old boys didn't seem a whole lot less canine.
Jennifer,
The extra year or two adds a sheen of apparent control, but only control over the outward manifestation of horrendous urges. And the manipulativeness is more evident by then as well.
15 year olds are nuts and look nuts, whereas 17 year olds are nuts but look almost normal.
The big guy is getting embarrassed when I give him kisses... :(
kimsch, that time of adolescence is sad.
One of the worst moments of my life? My 17 year old daughter, upon being told that no, she could not stay overnight at a mixed after-Prom party, said "I. Hate. You."
Owwwww. Still hurts just to recall it.
"So pedophilia did not apply to the bonds of Holy Matrimony."
Where are you getting the ages of Joseph and Mary from? I was unaware the bible gave the actual age. Also, what would be the definition of pedophilia at that time? What was the life expectancy then?
Pogo,
From the moment I popped those boys out I knew I'd have to cherish every kiss I could give and get because I knew the day would come... I just hope that the 7-year-old doesn't try to "copy" big bro and get embarrassed with kisses even earlier than the big guy.
I remember saying i.hate.you to my folks. Gladly we made up. I think I'll give Mom an extra kiss and hug on Christmas and make sure she knows I love her.
No, the audience doesn't correspond exactly. The definition of tween varies (and it has gotten lower, which is part of my issue), but in any case doesn't extend down to six.
(Tween definitions have ranged from 10 through twelve, to 9 to 12, even to 8-12; what seems to be evolving is that "tween" is supposed to mean the whole period between preschool/kiindergarten and what used to be described as junior high. Which is a helluva timespan. Especially since at age 6, even 7, kids still haven't entirely mastered discriminating between fantasy and reality, characters and the real people behind them, & etc. etc., on a developmental level, not just experience level,--which is part of my issue.)
Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, but I think that around the time "Zoey 101" won or at least was nominated for an Emmy, it was described as being in the 9-14 category. By my lights, I think that's about right--though perhaps it might seem a little unsophisticated for today's freshmen in high school.
The problem with child-safe all day, is that childhood encompasses a reasonably wide range of years, and a number of different developmental periods.
****
Anyway, I don't think my comments are contributing to the discussion in a positive way (and I suppose it would take a full post to explain my problem with idolization and how I think it, along with current circumstances and context, differ now from previous times, which I think would be of limited interest), so I'll drop out the discussion.
Where are you getting the ages of Joseph and Mary from?
I got Mary's age from our gracious hostess's post. But google reveals the conventions regarding Mary's youth and Joseph's age come from the Second Century work, The Protoevangelium of St. James.
Dennis said...""It's also possible that the couple is well-established and chose to have a baby, as many, many people throughout history have done at that age." But what is more likely in 2007, Ann, that a sixteen year old has carefully planned to have a child at 16 or that a couple of teenagers got knocked up unexpectedly? From what I heard, Spears's mother wasn't in on the family planning."
Dennis, I didn't mean chose to get pregnant. I meant chose to go through with the pregnancy rather than to have an abortion. Why not see this couple as taking responsibility for what they did? If you punish them, you are telling young girls to abort to avoid it. The idea that the young man should have his life ruined by being branded a sex offender is a prescription for abortion. Every boyfriend who gets a girl pregnant will have to plead with her to abort so his life isn't ruined.
""By the way, I hope no high schools are allowing their students to read "Romeo and Juliet."" Is there some alternative version of Romeo and Juliet in which the consequences of R&J's behavior aren't disastrous? The one I know ends with a dual suicide that's unlikely to make kids think emulation is a good idea."
The consequences aren't disastrous because they loved and wanted sex when they were teens. They were disastrous because their families tried to prevent it. And Juliet's parents were trying to marry her off to a much older man, even though she didn't want it. Good lord, how can you distort the meaning of the play like that to make it fit your point?
Freder Frederson said...
Why wouldn't Cederford like the autobahn?
I don't know. A few weeks ago he was ranting on about how limited access highways were a Jewish-socialist conspiracy (and not the good kind). So I figured he doesn't like Autobahns either.
Freder, anyone who has posted here for a while, knows that you lie and make stuff up on people you disagree with. Others have caught you at it. It's not hard, because you are too stupid to make up credible stories.
You complain about me calling you a traitor. You were the one saying insecure white males wanted to be in the Army so they would be able to rape women and murder Iraqi babies. You were the one who said America "murdered" over 650,000 Iraqis. You talked of Bush and other elected officials plotting genocide in NOLA. You said that Pol Pot's genocide was really all America's responsibility.
Even on the Internet, words have consequences.
Beth on the other hand, who hates my posts, is not stupid - merely lazy and not educated enough to debate matters where she disagrees...or understand causal links...Like Jamie-Lynn Spears is a product of an irrational system of societal expectations in America and other advanced nations about optimum reproduction strategies. Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore called it the trash breed, but the best and brightest don't dilemma of advanced nations.
We say it is immoral, but load up the single teen Mother with a huge pile of taxpayer-financed benefits
for themselves and each kid they have out of wedlock. Better money and benefits, notably full free health care for such irresposible breeders - that we see the Jaimie-Lynn Spears becoming ubiquitous, and the modern plague of 29-year old welfare Grand-Mammies with 8 kids from different dads and a grandchillun.
A vigorous society must enforce norms and make sluts, parasites, immoral men pay for their actions or you have a decaying country with less talented people and more trash created each year. Both Spears are wreckless sluts who would be in public housing right with a few welfare Grand-Mammies almost Britney's age if they didn't have singing talent.
But all the moralists screaming at what a slut Jaimie-Lynn Spears is and what a horrible mother Britney is wouldn't have said a peep if both has just quietly had the fetuses sucked out, problem gone. All while the same moralists that condemn announced pregnancies and welfare breeders typically believe abortion is a far greater moral crime (but only if they know a person has had one and tell everyone else.). Some of the more "saintly" Hollywood and TV leading ladies had abortions as starlets or had abortions just to stay on a TV show - we find out in "kiss and tell" books decades later.
Until we make some very hard to stomach structural changes in society, this stuff will continue to go on, even as it slowly destroys the fitness of the population in America, Singapore, and many other advanced nations...
And yes, I am a Jacksonian populist that despises Ruling Elites, be they Corporatists, Jews, poverty pimp black leaders, SF Dems, tweedy Lefty WASP academics, or lawyers with immense sense of self-entitlement that seek to bypass or manipulate The People to get what they want. And I don't think any of those groups or their Victim Identity Politics auxilliaries has any immunity amulet from criticism.
If you were in an immensely powerful minority or one seeking to be such, hungering for more undue, disproportionate power and clout - or freedom for looting an industry - or claiming that being a lawyer dressed in robes allows you to defeat all checks and balances on your power to legislate from the Bench....perhaps the greatest tool you can have defend your aggrandizement is immunity from criticism. And recognizing and rejecting such a tool is the People's greatest defense against their predations and stating the truth so the voters can decide matters. For many years it was hard because people had bought into the idea that "Victim Groups" were sacrosanct from criticism - to be PC required accepting everything they wanted as morally pure - while condemning their critics with PC variants of "what a meanie!!!".
"I got Mary's age from our gracious hostess's post. But google reveals the conventions regarding Mary's youth and Joseph's age come from the Second Century work, The Protoevangelium of St. James."
Yeah, I googled the ages to see what would come up. I never really thought of it before, but from what I found, the bible never really comes out with the age, but a document, perhaps the same one you refer to from about 150AD speculates on the ages. From what little I read, it was shot down by the church due to references to Jesus having brothers which would be a problem if Mary remained a virgin. I think there is still dispute over the style and references contained in it that casts some doubt on its accuracy. I think even refering to this document, however, the ages of both Mary and Joseph are guessed at based on clues in the test. Fascinating stuff.
Smilin' Jack said..."Except we need to think of Mary as being above the mere humanity that afflicts us all and afflicted us most severely when we were teenagers.' We do? I thought even Catholics regarded Mary as fully human. And why is humanity an affliction, anyway? Face the truth: Mary was just as stupid and irresponsible as Jamie Lynn. And God is a pedophile."
I'm not Catholic, but I find the subject of Mary interesting for many reasons. She plays the role of a goddess, which I find appealing from a feminist perspective, but she is supposed to be a human being. Nevertheless, she does not seem to have ordinary human qualities:
I was reading this Catholic website:
Pope Siricius I: "You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king" (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine: "In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave" (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
Beth: "As for Cedarford, Ann, I obviously disagree with your take. He absolutely derails threads with deranged tangents jumping from the thread topic to his rants on blacks..."
You're distorting the meaning of "derails," there. I don't agree that a person is derailing when he's just stating a strong position that most people disagree with. I want this to be an inclusive forum, and I think you ought to appreciate that people are coming here and articulating the extreme positions in a way that is not about attacking other commenters and trying to make themselves the subject of the thread. There is an important category that is called trolling, and it can be done by people with fairly mainstream views. I'm only excluding trolls, not anyone for just their opinions. (I also delete when I see assertions about private individuals or some sort of threat. So there are some other things I would delete. I would delete someone who used the N-word too.)
Same human body with genetically programmed urges.
Not really. Different lifespan [shorter], which I *assume* was condensed in a relative manner? Anyone know with certainty?
Add to that the culture - girls were routinely "sold" off into marriage after their first mense.
Its unwise to judge the past with today's standards.
So there are some other things I would delete. I would delete someone who used the N-word too.
Thats going to mess me up. I usually replace a commenter's ethnic slur [like redneck & hick] with "nigger" when quoting them, in the hope that such tactics will open their eyes to the double standard and their own racism.
Is that going to cause trouble with you? If so, I'll object for the record and then abide by your wishes.
Fen, are you saying that because we live longer these days that we have less of a sexual urge as teenagers? That's so plainly wrong. Improved health conditions are causing us to reach puberty at an earlier age, not later.
Sorry, one last - I just think that if you're going to delete posts with ethnic slurs, you should do so equally across the board. If "nigger" is wrong, then so is "redneck" and "hick".
Fen, are you saying that because we live longer these days that we have less of a sexual urge as teenagers?
No. I'm saying that [I think] shorter lifespans in past meant the biology was condensed: If you die naturally at 40, you probably "come of age" before 14. I'm not certain, maybe I'll research it. I guess the shorter version is that Mary at 14 was an adult woman, and not what we would see as a 14 yr old today.
Again, this is all speculation on my part. If anyone has evidence one way or the other, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Better proof: At what age did women of the Roman Empire hit menopause? If most died of "old" age before 40[*?], was the biology condensed - did they start menopause at a much earlier age than us.
[* 40 is speculative, I need to research it but I'm now in Dallas for the holidays, on my Mother's archaic computer]
The thing that shocks me here is that some parents are exposing their children to the nightly news.
Seriously. Dudes. Nothing positive can come from that.
Nick's biggest problem is not (contra reader_iam) that its inappropriate for that target age group. (At least, from what I've seen, the shows are remarkably sexless.)
I'd be more worried about the banality of the shows on Nick (and Disney). The players seem to be quite talented, but they're doing schtick that was old when Lucy did it.
But maybe that's not the usual perspective.
Oh, and yes, it was common during the Victorian era to perform R&J with a happy ending.
I want this to be an inclusive forum, and I think you ought to appreciate that people are coming here and articulating the extreme positions in a way that is not about attacking other commenters and trying to make themselves the subject of the thread.
I'll accept your reasoning about how you define trolls, but I won't go so far as appreciating Cedarford's comments. I'm not convinced they are free of personal attacks, for example, nor that that he doesn't take the opportunity to take the initial topic of a thread and turn it toward his own particular obsessions (a practice for which "derail" seems a perfectly adequate word). I suspect you don't read his comments often. I don't think we're going to change each other's mind here, so I defer to your judgment.
So many comments, and some I want to respond to:
rcocean: you told my favorite joke! Only it's "one-armed Cajun" in the version I know.
pogo -- I loved Superbad and found it sweet, in an obnoxious, foul-mouthed way, of course. And if I had a 14-year-old daughter, I wouldn't let her date any of the boys in the movie.
freder, revenant is on target about populism and fascism. Draw a little Venn diagram and you'll find David Duke at the intersection of populism and fascism. Not all populists are fascists, and not all fascists are populists. I'd say Huey Long was not fascist, and your average skinhead isn't a populist.
Wow, it looks like everyone commented on this thread except for Titus. But that is understandable as he was arrested in Madison this morning for squelching. In public. Which is performing oral sex on a snowman. Allegedly.
If you die naturally at 40, you probably "come of age" before 14.
Fen, humans have never (in recorded history, at least), "died naturally at 40". The average human lifespan used to be a lot lower, but not because we died of old age earlier. The main factor driving the low average age of death that most people died before they ever reached adulthood -- if your three siblings die at ages 1, 3, and 6 and you live to be 90, the average lifespan is only 25. Disease, starvation, and war also played a big part in reducing the average lifespan, but so far as we can tell, though, the *potential* human lifespan of 110-120 hasn't changed in thousands of years.
Also note that sexual maturity comes earlier in children who are well fed (probably an evolutionary adaptation to correlate birth rates with food supply). So odds are that teenagers are reaching sexual maturity at an earlier age today than they did in Biblical times (when starvation was still a common problem).
Yeah, I googled the ages to see what would come up. I never really thought of it before, but from what I found, the bible never really comes out with the age, but a document, perhaps the same one you refer to from about 150AD speculates on the ages. From what little I read, it was shot down by the church due to references to Jesus having brothers which would be a problem if Mary remained a virgin. I think there is still dispute over the style and references contained in it that casts some doubt on its accuracy...
I never understood this, how Jesus could have had four brothers, including notably James, and sisters (plural, but unnamed), but his mother remained a virgin through all that. Seems more like Marian revisionism than anything to me. But, not being Catholic, I am free to believe that he had at least six younger siblings.
But remember that it took an angel to convince Joseph to accept Mary after she was found to be "with child". One thing that I have long took from that is that even then, was that premarital sex was frowned upon, and only legitimized if the woman/girl was married before the birth - which is akin to where we were societally a hundred or so years ago with "shotgun weddings".
Someone asked above for our solution. Mine would be to either cancel the show or find a way to replace Ms. Spears. That is because of her being a role model for impressionable middle schoolers and later lower schoolers.
Can she be fired? I hope so. Depends on her contract. Contracts used to have morals clauses in them, and don't these days, at least for adults. But this is different, and I would think that given the situation, such a clause would be enforceable in exactly this situation with child actors.
Well it is really easy to understand. When the angel Gabriel brought the red rose to Joseph, he knew he was the bachelor.
And, Ann, firing Spears wouldn't be to teach the kids a lesson, but to protect them from a bad role model, and from a business point of view, to keep the parents from preventing their kids from watching the channel and show.
Just for the record, Nickelodeon has an entire season's worth of Zoey 101 which has already been taped for airing in 2008, and which probably would have been the last season anyway. The question for Nickelodeon is whether and how to air it amid the publicity about Jamie Lynn's pregnancy.
Wow unbelievable.
I swear that Conservatives would rather condemn and feel morally superior rather than
END ABORTION.
If she had an abortion-
1) She'd still have her economic livelyhood.
2) A lot of you would have a lot less to preach about.
In other words you "reward" abortion. Precious.
What would BF Skinner say?
That is one successful tact.
Finally how many of your daughters did I know that had abortions so you all could save face?
Pllleeenty.
Too many.
Oh and some of you God fearing Creatures drove your daughters across the state borders to "save face".
You don't want to end abortion the easy way-in actions you could take yourselves.
You want to legislate, and dictate from the bench
As my hero Barry Goldwater would say-
You all need a good swift kick in the ass.
Barry Goldwater.
R.I.P.
Way
to
space
it
out
dude!
Actually, Pogo, if Abercrombie sold a quality reindeer sweater I'd be first on line, but being as the beeyootiful people consider the reindeer motif to be terminally square they don't.
When it comes to reindeer sweaters you're stuck with bargain basement goods.
To me nothing beats a reindeer sweater with the reindeer across the chest in natural against a red background. In a pinch I'd settle for red reindeer against a natural background. But to repeat, no such quality R sweaters exist. A tragedy. The End.
Fashion plates’ sweater natural
with reindeer colored in red,
wearing it to be totally factual
I would much rather be dead.
ricpic: here's one for the girls; and for the boys, if you'll settle for a blue background.
I have a problem with the whole "role model" thing. (Oh, and for this conversation I should probably establish my creds and say I have four children, son 16, and daughters 15, 13, and 10. Even the 10 year old is well on her way into puberty.) I don't understand making a role model of a television character or actor and I don't understand making a role model of an athlete. It's just WEIRD to me.
It would be just WEIRD if any of my kids did it.
Is it because we homeschool and the kids weren't at school everyday talking to the other kids about their favorite television show? The closest I can even think that any of the kids identified with is Sonic the Hedgehog or Naruto... and that was only the youngest. And I never limited television to speak of either. So how is it that this role model thing happens?
Anyway, I'm glad... and shocked... that she's having the baby instead of an abortion. I'm very glad.
What should they do about the show? I don't care, really. She's an actress who plays a part. I don't understand why this is hard to explain to kids. And since I really do believe that most teenagers who have a baby *do* have the baby on purpose, I don't think it's too hard to explain that some girls think that a baby will love them for who they are, that they really do want a family, but that it really doesn't work that way and besides *you* have a family that loves you very much.
A hundred eighty five dollars, Joanie, a hundred eighty five! That much of a sucker for reindeer I'm not. But thanks for the thought.
Synova,
Yeah, actually, I think the homeschooling issue takes a lot of the conformist peer-pressure type influence out.
Home-schooled kids are way more likely to look at a current pop star or fad and say, "That looks stupid." And say so because they think so, rather than because they're trying to impress someone.
I could make the same comment about schools that I did about the nightly news: No good can come of exposing your kids to it.
Synova,
GREAT post! And thats all I have to say about Zoey 101.
Also...
Ever since the very first time that society understood that traits were heritable people have been worried about the wrong people reproducing too much.
The problem, and potential for evil, is that we are prone to take that truth and scientific understanding and run with it without much more guidance than our own prejudice for what is heritable and what is not and how it all really works.
It's not racist, in an of itself, for Cedarford to point out that some segments of our populations reproduce and other segments do not. Nor is it racist to point out that traits are heritable.
Maybe that's why I don't get all offended and upset when I hear it. Besides, it seems that ignoring what is true is one way to make sure that what is *not* true never gets debated.
Eugenics is one of those things that are self-evidently true. Being shocked and offended by eugenics isn't useful in any way at all.
What *isn't* self-evidently true is that poor people have poorer genes, be it in Singapore or in the United States.
In my small school where everyone knew everybody I never saw the correlation. Some of the families that would count by some as "trash" had children that were exceptionally bright, ADHD, little monsters that all got into drugs or at least alcohol, raced cars, and eventually worked hard and never got much of anywhere.
They had children young or knocked up their girlfriends, usually kept the children with the help of parents who hadn't done so well the first time around parenting either. They had close families, lots of friends, and drank lots of beer. If no one got arrested for anything serious that was a bonus.
So... is the population as a whole less smart because of who was breeding a couple of generations while the "bright" kids from stable families went to college and eventually decided their biological clocks demanded reproduction now or never so they had one or two children?
I don't think so. I don't see it. Some of the kids from "good" families who did well enough in school did so on effort alone and certainly not creativity or smarts. But at least they didn't have babies while they were teenagers and unmarried, hm?
Moreover, the idea of bright people marrying bright people and having bright kids doesn't seem to work all that well in real life. We end up with high rates of asbergers or autism and we don't know why.
Kids don't drop out of school because they aren't smart. Some drop out of school because they *are* smart and can't deal with the stupid. Not wise, maybe. Not from stable families, maybe. But we're not talking wisdom or family culture, we're talking *genes* and inherited intelligence.
"Should Nickelodeon cancel "Zoey 101" to teach young kids a lesson about teen pregnancy?"
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned (didn't bother reading the thread) but I read that the so far unaired fourth season was already set to be the show's last season so the question is moot.
The consequences aren't disastrous because they loved and wanted sex when they were teens. They were disastrous because their families tried to prevent it. And Juliet's parents were trying to marry her off to a much older man, even though she didn't want it. Good lord, how can you distort the meaning of the play like that to make it fit your point?
Shakespeare in general, Stanley Cavell on the shift caused by the advent of the enlightenment, which was the crisis of his time (and the beginning of our time) ; one effect, the shift to romantically desired marriage, and a shift in the idea of privacy.
madawaskan said...
Wow unbelievable. I swear that Conservatives would rather condemn and feel morally superior rather than END ABORTION.
First, as they say, my street creds: I am the father of 5 boys (12-22) and the grandfather of a 3 year old girl. My son and the baby's mother were not married, didn't marry and have now drifted on to other relationships.
So far the child has progressed well. She lived, until recently (mom just moved into her own apartment) with her mother and her maternal grandparents, and spent considerable time with her father at our house (and still does). Fortunately, both parents were of age, and have had constant support from their parents.
Is this the case in all instances of unwed pregnancy? I don't think so, and it is hard, if not disasterous, for the child and its unwed parents.
Do I condemn Jamie Lynn for her actions? No. I wish (as with my granddaughter) that events had happened differently, but condemnation is God's job, not mine.
The trouble is, and I think I saw this mentioned earlier, we are focusing on the baby's parents, and not the baby. If I had the power I would will that no child would be conceived outside of a loving, committed relationship. God has that power, and choose not to use it; I bow to his wisdom.
If God has chosen to bless a couple, whether they be a pair of 40 year olds working aginst the clock for their first, or a couple of teenagers fooling around in the backseat, that child needs to be loved and adored as the gift from God that they are; throwing that gift away in an abortion clinic is not only a slap on the face of God, but a destruction of your own future. How anyone can hold a newborn baby and not feel the power of both God and humanity is beyond me, and I easily equate performers of such atrocities as elective abortion with other genocidists, and will call them evil.
What happens to the child is key; numerous studies have been done that show causal links between single parent households and delinquency and crime. We, as a society, need to limit those single parent households, not encourage them. We need to walk a fine line between supporting unwed mothers, for the sake of the children, and condeming & preventing unwed births for the sake of society- but that prevention does not include the infanticide of abortion.
Sorry for the long rant here, but I hope this explains why I don't believe abortion can even be considered an option to a viable child in caring society.
I have spent the better part of an hour reading all these comments so it’s questionable whether I can add anything of value.
First, the biblical stuff – God’s message to Joseph on how he was to treat Mary was a foreshadowing of Jesus’ ministry of grace and forgiveness. Joseph overlooked Mary’s apparent sin and accepted her as his wife. Jesus ministered to adulterers, tax collectors, and other unclean sorts. He forgave them and instructed them to go and sin no more. The boundless mercy of God imputed by faith in Jesus’ sacrifice is the foundation of the Christian faith.
Second, what Nickelodeon should do – I wish that they would use Jamie Lynn’s pregnancy as an object lesson, with a realistic depiction of teen pregnancy. If they showed what it is really like it could be educational. Jamie Lynn could buy unattractive second-hand maternity clothes instead of the latest fashions, or baby supplies instead of a CD she wants; remodel a depressing basement into a room for her and the baby, or rent a cheap apartment in a bad neighborhood; sit at home alone while her friends attend concerts and parties, etc. The average non-celebrity girl may not realize the costs of becoming a young single parent – no money, reduced educational and professional opportunities, loss of freedom and social interaction, and the heavy burden of responsibility for another human being. It shouldn’t be so negative as to encourage abortion as an easy solution, but the message would be that teen pregnancy is far from an ideal outcome.
Third, on social and religious stigma – I became pregnant when I was eighteen, in 1979. I married the father and had another child with him before we divorced after nine years because of his unfaithfulness. I could have had a more successful and prosperous life if I had not had a baby at that age. I gave up a full college scholarship after two years to work and help support my family. I became more responsible and unselfish than I would have otherwise, but my children would be better off if they had been born when I was older. My parents and my church accepted my situation and their love sustained me, in spite of the disgrace I felt, of not living up to their expectations. There is no contradiction between condemning irresponsible sex, and supporting a young woman for whom pregnancy is already a reality.
We could ban adolescence--the ever-expanding psychologist-invented period between childhood and adulthood that lasts in our culture from puberty to about age twenty-five or at least five years past college graduation--except for Bill Clinton and many of his co-boomers, where adolescence extends into the sixties.
If, like the rest of the animal kingdom, human adulthood was defined as the ability to make babies and we expected--and allowed--adult behavior in these young adults, perhaps these "kids" (who are fighting our wars) would not make so many childish mistakes.
hmm...it's funny, because my daughter and I were just watching Zoey 101 the day before this announcement came out. She was telling me how much better Jamie Lynn was, and how much she looked up to her. The next day she just sighed. She's 13. She knows about sex. She knows about the consequences. She knows about peer pressure. And she was disappointed.
I think they should either replace her or cancel the show. I'd love it if they could use this entire affair as an object lesson, but Zoey 101 is a comedy, not a serious search into teen issues. There's nothing comedic about a 16 year old getting pregnant and becoming a single mother. And Zoey101 is not the forum to discuss this issue.
With that said, I think, considering the environment that Jamie Lynn has been subjected to, with her very strange mother, and her off-the-rocker sister, well, I think we should really be praying that someone comes along who can offer her wise counsel. Just because she's pregnant, doesn't make her life a loss. She's still young enough to live a full, good life, even with this mistake.
Rev: Fen, humans have never (in recorded history, at least), "died naturally at 40". The average human lifespan used to be a lot lower, but not because we died of old age earlier.
Ah okay. Ignorant train of thought on my part. Thanks for being gentle. ;)
Pogo, so is Yoko Onanism sex with someone only John Lennon could love?
I think it would be very irresponsible for Nick to leave her on this show to air. My young 12 year old daughter watches this show and for a pregnant 16 to be a role model for her " I don't think so ", that is like saying she did it so why can't I. I am all for forgiveness, but there are some things that shouldn't be paraded around as a good idea. There has got to be consequences for her actions being that she is a role model for young girls. That isn't the type of role model that I want my children seeing. If she stays on this show then my children will never watch it again.
Zoey has to take no blame for what Jamie Lynn does. Zoey 101 is one of the best shows for girls ages 9 to 14 and she should just take a break and start filming after the baby is born. It isn't our business what she does even if she is in the public eye. It's her business and if she's happy then let her be happy taking care of a baby at 16. They should NOT cancel the show. They should do a special about teen pregnancy though.
Mary got pregnant by immacualte conception...She didn't have sex with Joseph in order to birth the Savior of this world...So unless Jamie-Lynn is carrying the Messiah...There's no comparison!!!
The common American parent tries & tries to teach both sons & daughters to try to think before we do. Do the Spears tell there children to "just do". My daughters are very bright that they will no longer watch any Zoey 101 shows. i would not let them anyways but, we all feel that the producers of Zoey 101 need to cancel the show or make her lines go to a new Zoey. It's easy to re-cast her part of the show. i am getting rid of every Zoey 101 item in my house. The Nick network is a kids network that should be safe at all times. Now they are thinking of doing a teen pregnancy show. Give it a rest already. We'll stick with the Disney channel if this is what Nick is coming down to
I feel that they should take the show OFF THE AIR.
She would be setting a bad example and the fact is 2/3 of teen mothers NEVER graduate high school and only 1.5% of them obtain a college degree by age 30.
I do think Brittney is really stupid but Jamie Lynn nedds help right now.
NO ,Do not take Zoey 101 off of nickelodeon Please !!!!!!!!! what about kids we all love Zoey 101 . can't we all work together to keep Zoey 101 on nickelodeon .Yes Zoey has a baby but my kid love's the show.
NO ,Do not take Zoey 101 off of nickelodeon Please !!!!!!!!! what about kids we all love Zoey 101 . can't we all work together to keep Zoey 101 on nickelodeon .Yes Zoey has a baby but my kid love's the show.
NO ,Do not take Zoey 101 off of nickelodeon Please !!!!!!!!! what about kids we all love Zoey 101 . can't we all work together to keep Zoey 101 on nickelodeon .Yes Zoey has a baby but my kid love's the show.
My kids love the show too, but it needs to be taking off. My 12 yr old daughter does not need that kind of role model. There is enough of it going on in the world....
Dont take zoey 101 off just becues jamie is pregnat. ever little kid loves her and the show so there is no need to take it off becues it just showing that the parents that let there kid view the show can just talk to there kids about it not just tell them to trun the channel or turn off the tv why so she is pregnet and she plays in zoey 101. (a nother thang whats the big deal about her being 16 and being pregnet there is 1000 or more people that get pregnet at that age so there is no need to pick on her about it just let her be she is a person like everone ells.) my name is Evan and im 15.
Hi about "Zoey 101" I can't believe there are people on here calling this girl stupid!! Were do they live? in a bubble? there is kids out there haveing babys everyday.Instead of hidding our own kids from sex we should be talking to them when they come to us for questions.if the parents don't they learn it from school or by doing it then it's to late.We don't know the hole story about Zoey and we should'nt believe everything we hear.it might of been her frist time and had protection,but i don't think everyone on here is actting like an adult.we should be talking to our kids maybe have her do a show about teen sex.not put her down.this is Evans MOM Maybe you should look in a mirror.
no definitly not this shows kids they should do what they want n all you people just want your kids to be perfect and know everything imagine they was n evry1 was perfect no1 would have anything to do in this so fucked up world when u all were kids u had it best u fucked up this world. my cousin is 9 she come to me wen i was discussing jamies situation n she sadi, i think zoey is brave because she made a big mistake n decided to put it right by making the right decision unlike her sister did she made a mistake n put it behind her allways soon enuff she was making mistakes all the time n this suprised me a 9 year old putting my mom and i straight shes pretty cool my niese whose 7 said i dont want zoey to leave i think it gives growing boy's and girls an oppertunity to pick what goes on in their life i kno u people care about ur kids but maybee abit too much take a while to think has anybody in ur family been pregnant before marriage or maybee even before the age of 18-20 you people are so fucked up im just giving my opinion like everybody else maybe you should ask your kids what they think of nick taking zoey of off air for good then put in ur opinion most of u people want what you want for ur kids not actually what they think u people r so fucked up man life is a bitch n no i wouldn't marry one trust this world is shit i wouldn't even want my kids to grow up in it it's not good enough for them i hope i have got through to you
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