February 7, 2008

Third-grade boy wants to go to school dressed and treated as a girl.

The school — in Colorado — will accommodate him:
"As a public school system, our calling is to educate all kids no matter where they come from, what their background is, beliefs, values, it doesn't matter," said Whei Wong, Douglas County Schools spokesperson....

Wong says teachers are planning to address the student by name instead of using he or she. The child will not use the regular boys or girls bathroom. Instead, two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available.

89 comments:

Maxine Weiss said...

What sorts of comments were you after for post? What were you anticipating, hoping for....

--Cher is coming to Las Vegas..

--The dirty Dirty Dean's T-Shirt..

--Orange rouge is back in fashion..

Since you aren't able to cherry-pick the exact type of readers who walk through the door....the least you can do is micro-manage, and script readers' comments for them.

Love,
Maxine

matthew said...

Hey Maxine, aren't you supposed to remind Ann that she has to report the income she made from eating an egg salad on her taxes this year. If you haven't done so already, consider this a reminder to remind Ann about it.

Eli Blake said...

If he were an adult, or even a hight school student I could see this. But really does an eight year old know what his or her gender identity is yet?

When I was eight life was all about baseball and cub scouts and reading Tarzan books, and frankly I thought the pages where he was spending time with Jane were boring so I skipped through them looking for the next leopard he had to fight.

And yeah, boys were boys and girls were girls but I don't think that anyone really thought a whole lot about it.

Maybe he's growing up fast, but I wonder if he has any clue about the kind of harrassment he is going to face in the future, especially if he is still living in the same district when (s)he goes to Junior High school. Eight year olds haven't learned how to be really mean yet (though some of them are learning) but he may really regret it when he's thirteen and has to live with the decision he made (or maybe had someone make for him) when he was eight.

dmfoiemjsof said...

Boys in my elementary school used to dress like girls all the time. It was no big deal.

Maxine Weiss said...

I thought that all monies coming from paypal were considered exempt, since Althouse believes that blogging is a charitable endeavor.

Ralph said...

Does he want to wear fashionable Little Miss Slut clothes and makeup, too? I shouldn't make fun of what promises to be an unhappy life for this person.

If I were his parent, I'd find out if he's been interfered with yet.

B said...

~

And this is healthy for this child because . . .

Ralph said...

... Every child must be indulged, not controlled or disciplined. Jeez, get with the program!

former law student said...

"Third-grade boy wants to go to school dressed and treated as a girl."

Dressed like a girl, sure: Jeans and a T-shirt like the other girls.
Treated like a girl, sure: Modernly, girls are taught that they're the equal of any boy, and they are trained to be assertive.

So, nowadays to dress and be treated like a girl, you dress and act like a boy.

If I want to see a female wearing a dress, I watch an I Love Lucy rerun.

Lawgiver said...

Pearson (of TransYouth Family Advocates)says children as young as 5 years old are realizing their true gender identity and her group wants to help parents who may be resisting the acceptance of this.

I would love to see the "science" behind this statement. People like Pearson are going to screw up a lot of gullible people. Give me a class of five year olds and in a week I could convince the majority of them they were going to grow up and become bananas.

Third graders are much more sophisticated but many still have a great deal of trouble distinguishing fact from fiction much less their gender identity.

Yes parents, 5 year olds should be able to discover their own sexual identity and if they are having trouble doing so TransYouth Family Advocates can help!

Blake said...

Seems to me that crushes predate the third grade by many years. I remember having crushes pre-first grade.

Ralph said...

There was a girl on my bus to kindergarten who liked to kiss me. I was 4-5, but I can't remember her name.

Joe said...

Seems a little young, but at least the school is handling it delicately. Not referring to the kid as 'she' and allowing access to the unisex bathrooms seems the proper way to go about it.

Hoosier Daddy said...

But really does an eight year old know what his or her gender identity is yet?

I'm pretty sure that most 8 year olds know the difference between male and female. 2 maybe not, 8 I think they have a pretty good idea.

rhhardin said...

Luckily English doesn't have gender-inflected adjectives except blonde and brunette, so the language problem comes down to only pronouns if nobody writes about his hair.

ricpic said...

Checking my equipment I can plainly see
Why all the little girls are jealous of me:
Whenever they look down all they've got is a slot
Whereas I proudly sport a spigot.

Bissage said...

It’s classic advice.

If you can’t get a girl then a cute, chubby boy will do.

Some lucky pedophile out there is in for an extra special treat!

Bissage said...

NUTS!!!

That doesn't work at all.

Let's have another go . . .

Bissage said...

It’s classic advice.

If you can’t get a girl then a cute, chubby boy will do.

Sad.

Some unlucky pedophile out there is in for a bit of a let down.

Bissage said...

Wow. Talk about your ambivalence.

I got the internal logic right but I lost the kicker at the end.

Edmund Gwenn was right!

Jennifer said...

Nobody blinks an eye when a little girl wants to wear sports jerseys and scuffed converse sneakers. Why all the panic when a little boy wants to do exactly the same thing she is doing?

This is a great article by a mother struggling with a similar request from her preschooler.

MadisonMan said...

I suspect the people who know this child best, meaning his parents, aren't posting here. That the school district is accommodating the child's parents' request -- which I think will make their child more comfortable and therefore more likely to learn and not disrupt -- is a fabulous thing.

Would anyone here be kvetching if the child was trying to get to a different school? Or, as jennifer at 6:38 says, if this were a girl dressed as a boy? Exactly how is this different?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Girls will be boys and boys will be girls
Its a mixed up muddled up shook up world except for lola
Lo-lo-lo-lo lola

The Kinks

Meade said...

Ralph said...There was a girl on my bus to kindergarten who liked to kiss me. I was 4-5, but I can't remember her name.

What makes you think she was a girl?

bill said...

Paul Westerberg (The Replacements -- for Ralph and Meade, they also have a song titled Kiss Me On the Bus), Androgynous:

Here comes Dick
He's wearing a skirt
Here comes Jane
You know she's sporting a chain
Same hair revolution
Same build evolution
Tomorrow who's going to fuss

And they love each other so
Androgynous
Closer than you know
Love each other so
Androgynous

Well don't get him wrong
And don't get him mad
He might be a father
But he sure ain't a dad
She don't need
Advice that they send to her
She's happy with the way she looks
She's happy with her gender

And they love each other so
Androgynous
Closer than you know
Love each other so
Androgynous

Mirror image see no damage
See no evil at all
Cupie dolls and urine stalls
Will be laughed at the way
You're laughed at now

Now something meets boy
And something meets girl
They both are the same
They're overjoyed in this world
Same hair revolution, unisex, evolution
Tomorrow who's gonna fuss

And tomorrow Dick is wearing pants
Tomorrow Jane's wearing a dress
Future outcasts and they don't last
And today the people dress the way
That they please
The way they tried to do in the last century

And they love each other so
Androgynous
Closer than you know
Love each other so
Androgynous
Androgynous
Androgynous
Don't you get it
Androgynous

Pogo said...

Why all the panic when a little boy wants to do exactly the same thing she is doing?

1. I hope their son has good luck with Muslims as he grows up. I hear they aren't terribly accomodating to this sort of thing.

The battle of the diverse!
Guess who'll lose that one.

2. I hope they have made plans for puberty, i.e. castration and multiple surgeries. A 3rd grade boy can look alot like a girl. A 6th grader? Not so much.

Insurance may not cover it.
Starts at around $100,000.

3. What's with the separate-but-equal bathrooms? Are feminists anti-diverse? Where's the multi-culti crowd screaming in protest? What happens in gym class? Does the school build him a separate locker room? Do taxpayers have to foot the bill? What about the girls who are "made uncomfortable" by being told to treat a boy as a girl, especially in the nude, when such a delusion is obvious? Their concerns are overruled, or are they mere 'genderists' needing reeducation?

4. No panic, just incredulity.What's cute and tolerable at 10 is, barring surgical intervention, hideous at 20. Unless I misunderstood previous posts here, women aren't all that thrilled with the idea of allowing grown men into ladies' bathrooms at the mall or in a bar. Maybe that's changed. At what age do women thinks it's no longer OK? So if a 20 year old college student demands to really be treated as a woman, and not made to use separate facilities merely because he believes in his heart that he is a female, what do you say then? And how does a woman know that the man-dressed-as-a-woman is safe, and not a rapist merely gaining access to the women's room?

But if women here are telling me they're cool with those options, what do I care?

George said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
George said...

Let's see...my children's elementary school last week banned tag and other games involving "contact"....at the middle school it's time again for the annual "Silence is Death" day when the students advocating for gay rights seal their mouths with duct tape for the entire day...and, of course, at the high school the police patrol the halls and all the kids wear ID badges, measures which hopefully keep down the number of firearms "incidents."

Of course, it goes without saying that fat is bad, global warming is destroying the earth, the President is a fool, the Iraq War was wrong, Obama is the best candidate (because his name is cool), and Asian students are smarter than all others. And Hannah Montana rocks.

MadisonMan said...

So if a 20 year old college student demands to really be treated as a woman, and not made to use separate facilities merely because he believes in his heart that he is a female, what do you say then?

How is a transgendered person in a co-ed dorm a problem?

If you're talking about just using the facilities elsewhere on campus, well I'm not sure how anyone would know unless the boy in question was broadcasting his state. One does have an expectation of privacy within a cubicle (I learned that from a Senator!)

MadisonMan said...

george, my kid's elementary school principal also banned tag. Alas, the principal had not reckoned on the media savvy of some of her 5th graders, who promptly complained about it to the press.

Accounts here and here.

Hoosier Daddy said...

george, my kid's elementary school principal also banned tag.

I honestly fear for the future.

MadisonMan said...

Hoosier Daddy, it all worked out well in the end. The kids learned how to fight city hall (successfully), the ban was dropped like a hot potato, and the teachers learned of the idiocy of the (then new) principal.

Pogo said...

Third-grade boy wants to go to school dressed and treated as a girl.
Would anyone here be kvetching ...if this were a girl dressed as a boy?

If the womenfolk are happy with the following post title in their own lives and for their daughters, then I'm cool with it, too.

Thirty year old man wants to go to local Curves dressed and treated as a girl.

3rd graders are, soon enough, thirty.

How is a transgendered person in a co-ed dorm a problem?
If women are fine with some guy in their bathroom every morning, as I say, I don't care.

And since a guy doesn't have to "broadcast his state", well, what right does any female have to object to men using the ladies' room and locker room in every building on campus, in the dressing rooms at the mall, at the swimming pool, or in the public parks? What do they have to prove to you? A guy says he's in there because he's a woman, what right do you have to complain? What are you, a genderist?

And since girls can indeed dress like guys and no one objects, why can't guys dress like girls who dress like guys, and go wherever the hell they want?

Why do they have to declare anything at all? They're simply multisexual, or something. Anyway, they want to use the girl's bathroom. It's none of your business, you anti-diverse woman.

Not only are women as good as men, men are women whenever they say so. I guess ladies just better get used to it. If they don't like it, it's their problem.

So let's hear the support from women for extending this concept into adult life, which you must if you begin this kid down the path in 3rd grade.

Bissage said...

I’ve been thinking about all this and I think I should make it official.

I INVENTED that joke, way back in nineteen freaking seventy-nine, fercryinoutloud.

You know the one: I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

And have I ever seen so much as a dime’s worth of royalties?

I have not!

[ Makes a cup of tea and puts a Joan Armatrading CD on the turntable. ]

* sniff *

Hoosier Daddy said...

Nobody blinks an eye when a little girl wants to wear sports jerseys and scuffed converse sneakers. Why all the panic when a little boy wants to do exactly the same thing she is doing?

Well maybe cause sports jerseys and scuffed sneakers aren't necessarily unique to the male wardrobe in the same manner frilly dresses, high heels and nylons are to females.

I think there are some concrete distinctions between male and female dress

MadisonMan said...

pogo, how will anyone know?

A guy who says he's a woman isn't actually going to say anything -- he'll just be a woman, look like a woman (penis notwithstanding) and use the women's room. The same will hold true for a woman who thinks she's a guy. If she's dressed like a guy and goes in the men's room into a stall, it's not like there's some patrol in there demanding proof of penis for entry.

I'm thinking there are 1000s of people using the "wrong" public restroom every day and no one knows!

Jennifer said...

Pogo, I usually find a lot of wisdom in your comments, but I am at a complete loss here. Of course I wouldn't be bothered by a transgendered man in my gym, bathroom, etc... What's next? I should freak out if a gasp! lesbian shares a bathroom with me? I mean seriously.

A rapist could pose as such an individual, sure. A rapist could also break in through a window, pose as a janitor, ask me out on a date, etc...

And, from what I can tell from the article, this little boy isn't trying to use the girls' bathroom, he's being allowed to use two unisex bathrooms. Presumably these are individual bathrooms.

peter hoh said...

Hoosier, what articles of clothing are male specific? Aside from underwear, I can't think of any.

Simon said...

I don't see what the fuss is about. It's a self-correcting problem: he'll be beaten to a pulp by bullies, and leverage the pain into a career as an artist. In fifteen years he'll be living in Seattle with a therapist, the beginnings of a novel, and a Kucinich bumper sticker. He'll be dealing with it or he won't. It seems a little bit "nanny state" to insist that the parents are doing something wrong by indulging an ill-advised whim and thus wilfully and knowingly creating the circumstances for him to be hoisted up the flagpole by his pretty pink underwear.

Roger said...

With respect to the schools spokesperson, it could be said that two wrights dont make a wong.

Jennifer said...

Hoosier Daddy, but why is that the case? And, on a side note, how can you possibly make the argument that a football jersey is just as female as it is male? And why is it ok for little girls to be "tomboys" but not ok in the reverse?

Last I checked, men just a century ago were pretty darn frilly in their dress. Cops wear nylons under their uniforms for warmth (same reason women wear more nylons in the winter than the summer). Tom Cruise wears high heels. But, he's a man so we call them lifts.

I'm trying to understand why this divide is so concrete in some people's minds. I'd like to hear more than "it just is".

Tibore said...

Hey, I heard Cher is coming to Las Vegas wearing "The dirty Dirty Dean's T-Shirt" and telling us that Orange rouge is back in fashion...

Just wanted to keep Maxine happy. ;)

MadisonMan said...

Tom Cruise wears high heels. But, he's a man so we call them lifts.

Ouch. But funny.

Pogo said...

he'll just be a woman, look like a woman (penis notwithstanding) and use the women's room.

I want to hear how thrilled women are with this idea.

I think, Madisonman, you are forgetting why there are separate bathrooms to begin with. It's not for some outdated cultural reason, it's for safety. Women fear men, and for good reason. As a result, they have a not-unreasonable expectation of privacy and safety in a women's room that is not possible unless separate.

But as I say, I could be wrong and this idea is passe. But let's see how strongly women support the idea of letting guys use their bathrooms, however they are dressed (because you cannot demand that guys must dress in traditional feminine attire to claim to be feminine, if girls don't have to either).

More simply, this means women cannot expect safety or privacy in public facilities that have heretofore been gendered. So let's just get rid of the separation altogether. I'm sure the multicultural women will love it.

how will anyone know?
Barring serious hormone treatment, most transgenderists are pretty easly discernable by women.

And, from what I can tell from the article, this little boy isn't trying to use the girls' bathroom,
This is what I am after, Jennifer. It's not my decision to make, but belongs, properly so, with women. If women are happy allowing a 3rd grade boy to demand to be treated as a girl, then fine.

But then why a separate bathroom?
And what happens in puberty?
What if he does not want castration and hormones, but develops the usual male features, and still demands special treatment?
Are the discomforts of his high school female classmates unwarranted? What of their concerns?
Gym class? Which one?
High school? Why a separate toilet for him?

In the end, this is why adults make decisions. Because there are in fact long term consequences here. He will be an adult some day. And if you're telling me women in general are okay with this in their own lives, and they are similarly accomodating to this whenever a man decides he feels this way (at whatever age), it's your call.

I'm just surprised women are unconcerned about the ramifications. And my gut feeling about this could be totally wrong, and women are thrilled to share this space with men as I have described. It just means I know nothing about women at all.

Which is entirely possible.

ricpic said...

Pretty in pink,
It's really shitty
When those pants stink,
I think I'll flitty
On down the hall
And find me a stall
Where I can think
This thing through.

Meade said...

"And have I ever seen so much as a dime’s worth of royalties?"

Chin up, Bissage, I owe you at least a dollar.

(Where's your PayPal, my dear old, you know, gal pal?)

Shoot, I may even owe you ten dollars. Back in my skirt-chasing salad days (no, not tossed) during the late 70's-early 80's, that joke/line worked for me at least, oh, twice. It's hard to remember. What I do remember was a kindly older sibling who took me aside to inform me about the ease of transmitting STDs. (From them to me. Yikes!)
And I cried "Jeez!"
I got down on my knees
and begged "please, oh please"
and then I ceased.

And desistered.

Bruce Hayden said...

I thought that it might be in Boulder, but rather, it turns out to be in Highlands Ranch, a large upscale community/ mega-subdivision south of Denver right around C-470. Know a bunch of people there, and it is as upscale suburban as it gets.

Skyler said...

This child's parents just guaranteed that their child will be tormented to an unbelievable degree.

I don't condone such inevitable behavior, but the fact that it is inevitable makes me very unsympathetic to complaints of this result.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

"I'm just surprised women are unconcerned about the ramifications. And my gut feeling about this could be totally wrong, and women are thrilled to share this space with men as I have described. It just means I know nothing about women at all."

Maybe it's an age thing. I would be very uncomfortable sharing a public restroom with strange men. Not so much for the safety issue, but more for the privacy. A restroom is where we conduct indelicate bodily functions and I would rather not share them with strangers at all much less men that I don't know. Women also use the restroom as a place to put on makeup, adjust undergarments, gossip about the men and a haven to get away from others sometimes.

Even in my married life my husband and I do not share the bathroom while.... ahem...eliminating. Showering, bathing ...you bet.

Pogo is correct. This kid is in for a very rough time when he gets older: no longer a cute androgyonous child but rather a big hairy man in women's clothing.

Simon said...

Jennifer said...
"I'm trying to understand why this divide is so concrete in some people's minds. I'd like to hear more than 'it just is'."

The accumulated inertia and tradition of American society as they relate to present trends in sartorial style and cultural concepts of masculinity. I.e., it just is.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier Daddy, but why is that the case? And, on a side note, how can you possibly make the argument that a football jersey is just as female as it is male?

I didn't. You said sports jersey which I could take to mean anything from a football, hockey, soccer or baseball shirt.

And why is it ok for little girls to be "tomboys" but not ok in the reverse?

I don't know. Maybe because most guys don't have the desire to dress like girls in the way girls want to dress like guys. Maybe because women are jealous we can pee standing up without making a mess and wearing a Redskins jersey is a close second for you guys?

Last I checked, men just a century ago were pretty darn frilly in their dress.

And two centuries ago they wore wigs and makeup too. Scots wear kilts but only because the sound of zippers scare the sheep (that was a joke BTW).

Cops wear nylons under their uniforms for warmth

I don't know what cops you know but thermal underwear are much more effective. Plus squad cars do have heaters. I worked in the steel mills in Gary for five years and in the winter, we wore thermals too.

Can you honestly say that if you saw a guy walking down the street wearing skin tight hip huggers with a mid-riff halter top complete with open toed pumps you wouldn't think that he was just a tiny bit odd

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier, what articles of clothing are male specific? Aside from underwear, I can't think of any.

You're correct. There are probably more female specific clothing than there are for males.

Freder Frederson said...

Pogo is correct. This kid is in for a very rough time when he gets older: no longer a cute androgyonous child but rather a big hairy man in women's clothing.

News flash. People with gender identity issues still suffer from discrimination and sometimes outright violence and hate crimes in this country. What a shock.

Maybe it is because ignorant, insensitive, homophobic jerks like Simon (who apparently thinks it will be funny when this child is ridiculed and bullied), DBQ, Hoosier Daddy and others refuse to accept that these traits are not chosen. By implying that this child deserves what he gets for being different, you are encouraging the bullies.

Smilin' Jack said...

Third-grade boy wants to go to school dressed and treated as a girl.

Why hasn't this kid been beaten to a pulp yet? Back in my day, there'd have been at least a dozen of us waiting for him after school. What's wrong with kids today?

Hoosier Daddy said...

Maybe it is because ignorant, insensitive, homophobic jerks like Simon (who apparently thinks it will be funny when this child is ridiculed and bullied), DBQ, Hoosier Daddy and others refuse to accept that these traits are not chosen.

I'm not a homophobic jerk Freder. Gay people don't scare me. Now I'm afraid of spiders which makes me arachnaphobic although I'm not sure if that is manly. Mice don't scare me though so maybe its a wash.

I'm not sure if this 8 year old is gay so the homophobic slur may not be applicable in any event. It seems he only wants to dress like a girl so maybe transgenderedphobe is the term you're looking for. Then again, transgendered people don't scare me either. Well some do depending if they overdo the makeup and look like clowns which we know scare everyone including transgendered/cross-dressing third graders.

Pogo said...

Highlands Ranch, a large upscale community/ mega-subdivision south of Denver

Not only did these school officials not discuss this with other parents, they did not understand they were making a decision that affects the associated middle schools, high schools, and local shops and facilities.

Why? Because the kid and his parents are making a demand that the city conform to this new rule. Without advice or consent.

You think I'm wrong?
Then you must think the parents aren't going to let the kid live full time as a girl. This means the grade school has made a unilateral decision affecting the entire community.

By what right did they do so?

And from this point, are the women in Highlands Ranch happy with letting their young daughters use the bathroom in the nearby Park Meadows Shopping Center mall, or try on clothes at the Macy's there, when a man can freely demand entry dressed as a woman?

Call me surprised.

peter hoh said...

Hoosier: the point is, there are no male gender specific outer garments. Women can wear anything. There's probably no article of clothing associated with masculinity that has not appeared in a Playboy photoshoot.

Quite a few posters seem to think that the parents are blissfully unaware of the difficult situation their son is in. I don't see any reason to assume that is the case.

Trooper York said...

The only way you can tell if a little kid is girl is if she is wearing a Patriot jersey.

former law student said...

There is nothing sexier than a woman wearing only a man's dress shirt, but if you wear your wife's nightgown one time...



j/k

bearing said...

Oy.

One of my sons used to gaze with longing at the pretty, flowery, frilly dresses that his female friend wore. "Mommy," he told me, "I want to wear the pretty dresses too."

Did I

(a) tell him, "Thank you so much for coming out to me. This means that you are a TRANSGENDERED person. Say it: TRANS. GEN. DERED. I know, it's a long word. You'll get used to it."

(b) call a transgendered-person advocacy group for parenting advice,

(c) buy him several gorgeous, flowery Hawaiian shirts, resulting in him shouting joyously, "Yay! Boy clothes! With flowers just like [friend's]!"

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Maybe it is because ignorant, insensitive, homophobic jerks like Simon (who apparently thinks it will be funny when this child is ridiculed and bullied), DBQ, Hoosier Daddy and others refuse to accept that these traits are not chosen. By implying that this child deserves what he gets for being different, you are encouraging the bullies.

Wow. That's a pretty big leap of fallacious logic you just did there Freder. I merely pointed out that this kid is going to have a very hard time in the future.

Whether you like it or not it IS reality and denying that is not helping. I never said anything about his/her gender being a choice or being a genetic selection or any indication that I "refuse" to accept that gender identity is not inborn.

If you want to discuss, I would appreciate it if you didn't make up stories about me out of whole cloth and misrepresent what you assume are my opinions, when I haven't given any opinion on the topic.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

I don't think that the clothes are such a big deal, but his dad better make sure that he doesn't throw like a girl. You can't come back from that too easily.

Pogo said...

a pretty big leap of fallacious logic you just did there Freder

But DBQ, that's his specialty.

Hoosier Daddy said...

Hoosier: the point is, there are no male gender specific outer garments. Women can wear anything. There's probably no article of clothing associated with masculinity that has not appeared in a Playboy photoshoot.

I don't disagree. Although I do think that there is female specific clothing.

Freder Frederson said...

Pogo is correct. This kid is in for a very rough time when he gets older: no longer a cute androgyonous child but rather a big hairy man in women's clothing.

Oh no, you wouldn't have a problem with him! You're just pointing out other people don't like drag queens! You have no problem with them at all!

It was so mean of me to imply that you are uncomfortable with cross-dressing men!

So how exactly do you feel about it?

Beth said...

I don't like this group that wants pre-teens to embrace their trans-ness. I have many, many doubts about leaping to the conclusion that identifying with the opposite sex means one is transgendered. As a youngster, this kid's age, I knew I liked other girls, and I knew I probably shouldn't tell anyone about it (this was 40 years ago). I actually prayed that I'd wake up transformed into a boy, because boys could like girls and all would be well. I'm quite relieved God didn't work any miraculous overnight trans-formation on me; I'm not transgendered, I'm a lesbian, and happy to be so.

I love the range of butch to femme in both lesbians and gay men. I worry we're going to lose something important if we encourage kids to use medical technology to reject what I see as a cultural richness.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Oh no, you wouldn't have a problem with him! You're just pointing out other people don't like drag queens! You have no problem with them at all!

Freder, you are such a piece of work. And I mean that in the worst way.

I am pointing out the obvious fact that this kid and others like him (be they transgendered males or females) are going to face a lot of discrimination in their lives. Some subtle and some very overt. If you don't like that fact, tough titty.

Personally, I could give a rat's ass what someone wants to wear or how they want to live their lives as long as they don't start impeding on my life or begin dictating to me how I should feel.

One of my good clients is a "woman" who is a transgendered male. She is one of the most elegantly dressed and well mannered people I know. Sweet and artistic and has her own home decorating business. I'm quite sure she would hate you for the rude, obnoxious, bigot that you are.

We all know that she was once a 6'2" man. She knows we know and you know what. No one cares. No one mentions it. She is what she is. She however, has no contact with her family (mother, father, brothers) who refuse to speak to her or acknowledge that she even exists. If "this" person can't even be acknowledged by her own family, don't you think that my contention that this little boy is going to have a bit of difficulty in life is true.

Throwing names at people because they are speaking the truth isn't getting you anywhere or going to help this situation. It only makes you look foolish and small minded.

Beth said...

Hey Trooper, speaking of girls and throwing balls, this is for you:

Nuns play role in Giants win.

According to the Mother Superior of the Ursuline Nuns: "Some of the sisters down here are 80 to 90 years old, and they are football addicts," Finnerty said. "So when the Giants made the Super Bowl, one of them said to me, 'We can't let Eli down. We have to get Our Lady in on this.' "

Michael_H said...

It's hard to imagine that a third grade boy's body has kicked into hormone overdrive to the point that he understands gender and knows that he is female even though he appears male.

So why does the little nipper want to go to school dressed like a girl? That seems like the big, unanswered question, no?

Did someone in his household encourage this behavior for whatever reason? Did he perceive that girls receive better treatment than boys at his school and wants to be identified as a girl so he can be treated better?

It would be interesting to know more about his home life.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Freder, another thing I feel about Drag Queens?

When I lived in San Franscisco near the Castro District. I greatly appreciated Drag Queens, because that meant that the clothing stores carried some fabulous things and the shoe stores had some wicked sexy shoes available. Granted much of the merchandise was in larger sizes, but I could alway ask the proprietor to order in my shoe or dress size.

Much more interesting clothing in the Gay district shops than at the mall. Thanks Drag Queens for creating a niche market that I can also appreciate.

:-)

MadisonMan said...

beth, that story is great. I loved the quote about Katrina: "We're not exactly sure what happened two years ago with Katrina," Finnerty said. "But we wanted the Giants to win. So, we prayed in a sort of full-court press. I know that's not the right sports phrase for football, but you know what I mean. Besides, we always pray for the Manning brothers."

Freder Frederson said...

We all know that she was once a 6'2" man. She knows we know and you know what. No one cares.

Unless of course, you ran into her in a public restroom. Which is the comment I was jumping on you for in the first place.

I don't see how criticizing others' bigotry, and the outright encouragement by some--not you, that this kid should be beat up, makes me a bigot. Please explain.

Lawgiver said...

DBQ,

People call me homophobic also and I don't understand why.

During the day I am a mild mannered but manly consultant, but when night falls I become a WOW vixen. I proudly show my tattoos and dress in green simmering tights with a form-fitting purple shirt. I feel all squishy and love it when a big guy offers to protect me. I dance with the trolls and tease the pursuing horde. My family sometimes disapproves of my behavior but they understand my need.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Unless of course, you ran into her in a public restroom. Which is the comment I was jumping on you for in the first place.

I don't see how criticizing others' bigotry, and the outright encouragement by some--not you, that this kid should be beat up, makes me a bigot. Please explain


Why I should bother trying to explain to someone who seems to have the mental capacaty of a rutabega is inexplicable, but here goes. I'll type very slowly.

A person who has undergone a sex change operation is no longer a man or a woman. His manly/womanly parts are no longer in existance and for all intents and purposes he is now a she or a he.

Pogo was discussing people who are men dressing up as women, but who are still men using public restrooms that have been historically segregated by gender. These "men" may be cross dressing in public, but they are still males, just like the husband who cross dresses in the privacy of his home. Still male.

Pogo, to whom I was responding, was also addressing the idea of generic/multisex restrooms which seem to be the latest thing on campuses and in some corporate settings.

I don't like the idea of having men in the restroom with me, not even my husband. If MEN want to dress as women fine. I just don't want to share a toilet experience with strange men even if they dressed like astronauts, clowns or Judy Garland.

You are a bigot because if anyone disagrees with you, you get into chihuahua attack dog mode and twist, misrepresent or purposely misunderstand the other person's position. You do not argue in good faith and use the tactics of smear, stereotyping and bullying.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

That's nice Lawgiver. Just don't use the restroom with me.

Are you a night elf? (inside joke for WOW world of warcraft)

Lawgiver said...

The are no restrooms in WOW, blessed be Elune!

I am a 67 Night Elf Shadow Priestess and proud of it!

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

I'm a 70 Tauren Beast Master Hunter. Cross dressing I guess since I'm a male Tauren. Moooo.

And yes.. there are no restrooms in WOW although there should be given the amount of meat and cheese we eat. This is probably why we do Heroic BM frequently.

(Another inside joke.)

Freder Frederson said...

You are a bigot because if anyone disagrees with you, you get into chihuahua attack dog mode and twist, misrepresent or purposely misunderstand the other person's position.

Well then I apologize. You are not at the same level as the sneering bigots like Simon, Pogo and others.

As for having posts deliberately misrepresented. I wish I had a nickel for all the times opinions have been credited to me that I do not hold.

Pogo said...

You are not at the same level as the sneering bigots like Simon, Pogo and others.

As for having posts deliberately misrepresented. I wish I had a nickel...


Irony?
Utter cluelessness?
Both?

It's hard for me to decide.

Hoosier Daddy said...

The are no restrooms in WOW, blessed be Elune!

That's because we all crap in the woods with the bears and elementals.

I am a 67 Night Elf Shadow Priestess and proud of it!

Dust Bunny Queen said...
I'm a 70 Tauren Beast Master Hunter. Cross dressing I guess since I'm a male Tauren. Moooo.


I'm a 70 Human rogue, female - name: Fraublucher which of course gets many chuckles for the Young Frankenstein reference although I'm sure Freder or hdhouse would view it as confirmation of my Nazi bona fides.

Pogo said...

neigh-hee-hee-heeeee.

Hoosier Daddy said...

This is probably why we do Heroic BM frequently.

I just choked on my beer. Thanks. Maybe the next expansion will allow for an Elixir of Fiber for those with the alchemy profession.

Bissage said...

Meade,

Yes my Althouse friend, those were special times.

Some of us desistered and some of us reblistered!

Synova said...

bearing said,

One of my sons used to gaze with longing at the pretty, flowery, frilly dresses that his female friend wore. "Mommy," he told me, "I want to wear the pretty dresses too."

Did I

(a) tell him, "Thank you so much for coming out to me. This means that you are a TRANSGENDERED person. Say it: TRANS. GEN. DERED. I know, it's a long word. You'll get used to it."

(b) call a transgendered-person advocacy group for parenting advice,

(c) buy him several gorgeous, flowery Hawaiian shirts, resulting in him shouting joyously, "Yay! Boy clothes! With flowers just like [friend's]!"

I say: Thank you THANK YOU! And I hope you got him silky ones, too.

Little boys and little girls like what they like and it will often enough be absolutely contrary to "girl stuff" or "boy stuff". This is normal. Deciding you wish you were a boy and not a girl, or vice versa, is NORMAL. Heck, it's normal for a kid to decide that they are really a DOG.

I've been hearing and reading a whole lot about transgendered issues lately and the pure *deterministic* inflexibility of it is getting on my very last nerve!

You'd think it was the other way around, that accepting that you are transgendered is all about flexibility in the face of gender rigidness but it's completely opposite.

It's all about finding out what gender you *really* are and then doing everything possible to utterly and SLAVISHLY conform to your true gender.

It's not about wearing girl clothes or boy clothes because you like them, it's about *passing*. It's about what other people think of you and who you are.

I'm sorry for people who are transgendered adults because it's got to be hard for them. But the idea that the reason you're depressed or unhappy as a teenager and hate the body you're in is because your *true* gender doesn't match your physical body is just...

Like someone said... I want to see the science behind it.

We don't tell a teenager who's depressed and unhappy and hates the body she's in and *anorexic* that she's found her "true" identity so we're going to support her about it.

I was reading a college support page that explained that transgendered students might have trouble accessing information about safe sex and contraception because they might think of their parts using different terminology.

Not knowing that your penis is called a penis, no matter how much you wish you didn't have one, or knowing that your vagina is called a vagina, because your true gender is male is, in my mind, a whole lot like an anorexic who doesn't see skin and bones but really and honestly looks in the mirror and sees fat.

You don't "support" an anorexic by agreeing with her!

Synova said...

Beth? Would you be willing to email me?

Edward said...

As the father of a nine year old gender variant boy who presents as female, I find the intolerance and ignorance on display here as depressing as I find it inevitable.

I find it inevitable, because I was as willfully stupid, and ignorant, and as filled with phobic sniggering as most of you, before my child was born this way.

Do you think parents do this because they WANT to? How stupid are you? Do you think this is a life anyone wishes on a child?

The only reason parents go to this extreme, is because any other course of action leads to highly elevated rates of suicide.

Gender variant and transgender children with parental support have roughly normative rates of suicide.

So, snicker all you want, but the majority of these parents have overcome the feelings you are now expressing, and are fighting like mad to keep their children alive.

Gender dysphoric children aren't playing a game. They mutilate themselves with sissors; they hang themselves as young as ten years old.

Gender isn't learned. That was a stupid, liberal-left, utopian notion that has been disproved by the failure of 'assigning' gender to a variety of children with birth-defects in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Gender is innate.

The brain and body are gendered at different times by different washes of hormones; the modern environment is awash in endocrine disruptors. There are now rivers full of very real, transgendered fish. We drink the water from these rivers without processing out the estrogenic compounds.

These compounds--at levels far too low to cause cancer, and thus, far too low to be regulated--have profound effects on the developing fetus. Gender variant lab-rats can be manufactured reliably by tinkering with the hormone washes.

These children fight to understand themselves, create themselves, they swim upstream from the moment they reach out for their very first toy. This condition is relentless, it doesn't respond to 'treatment,' and no reputable therapist outside the 'reparative therapy' or psycho-fundamentalist camp currently recommends trying to treat--or beat-- this out of the kids.

They cry themselves to night when they're 2, 3, 4, asking why God made a mistake and put them in the wrong body.

I've listened to my son cry. It changes you. It burns the homophobia and the transphobia out of you.

Or, you beat your kids to death. That happens too, there was a recent case. The man beat his 3 year old to death for liking pink. He was trying to toughen him up.

My son now presents and passes as female. He hasn't hit puberty. He is not currently dysphoric, he's comfortable with male pronouns and his male body, and our school, which is a public school, has protected him. There's no bullying. He has friends. He's not hurting anyone.

His hair and clothing choices aren't going to result in the end of western civilization. Kids get this pretty quickly.

I'm hoping we don't need to go the drugs and surgery route, that he'll be happy as gender-queer or a crossdresser. If he does go the drugs and surgery route, the outcome, for young people who do this early, is in-detectable.

I've met a few teen transgirls. They pass completely. Early studies of long-term (five years out) outcomes are good--100% satisfaction with zero regrets.

The prevalence of endocrine disruptors in the environment coupled with advances in tolerance, endocrinology, and GRS surgery, means we're all going to see a lot more of this as life goes on.

Eventually, grown-ups who think rationally will learn to stop sniggering.

What other people do with, or think about, their private parts, is their own business. People secure in their own gender/identity can pretty easily learn to accept this in others.

It's the tortured closet cases that emit the bulk of the hatred and the bile.

In a generation or two, the closet cases won't exist in such numbers, and we'll start to get over this.

newyrsevex1 said...

I have 2 mix feelings about this (and If I had children I would always have this same feelings) If you forbid a child who "LOVE" to cross dress they may want to do this more..so "just accept" they want to (on) the other side of the coin people {out side} the home may not be as nice as they realy tend to be, some one may say "he is gay..they may try to sexual abuse the male and if i was "his" dad. I would accept his cross dressing, but I would sit him down and tell him in a nice way (not yelling..and certainly not punishing him)

Jamie (and as hims birth name I would give him a name that is both for a boy and a girl) but I would tell my son "Jamie"

your father love you very much, no matter if you want to dress as a boy or a girl, and what you do in the privacy of HOME will be up to you (make up, cross dressing....) but I am not trying to scare you, there are MEAN people out side this house in the world and just becuaes you are cross dressing people will say and DO things to hurt you, SO i want you to be careful, if you tell any one that you cross dress, as far as the family (your sister, brother cousin, grand parents) i perfer that you'dont' cross dress because they may not accept you.

Kevin Algood
newyrsevex1@aol.com